Television interview - News24

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, thanks for your time.

ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you.

GILBERT: Congratulations. It's quite a milestone. You've passed Paul Keating now, and you're the fourth longest-serving Labor Prime Minister in this nation's history. How do you reflect on that milestone?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I feel very proud, but most importantly, I feel a great sense of privilege and indeed responsibility to continue to make a difference as the Prime Minister. I'm not here to just occupy the space. I'm here to make a difference. And the work that we're doing in maintaining a strong economy, as strong as possible, dealing with the inflationary pressures that have come from around the world, maintaining strong employment. Yesterday's announcement at Tomago is of course a critical one that will protect 1,000 jobs there on-site, but 5,000 direct jobs in the Hunter, but tens of thousands of jobs. And importantly, that's about Australia's sovereign capacity, our resilience as an economy. That is so important. And the other big challenges that we're dealing with, and opportunities. Climate change, dealing with the social media ban for young people, growing challenges like artificial intelligence, and of course our place in the world. We have repaired relationships in the Pacific and with ASEAN. We live in a very uncertain world. It's turbulent. And whilst we navigate these turbulent seas, we have to keep our eye on the horizon. So, it's a matter of dealing with immediate issues, the day-to-day, but also how do we set Australia up for the stronger future that Australians deserve?

GILBERT: I understand that's your focus. You talk about the achievements and the job at hand. That makes a lot of sense. But when you look at the numbers in terms of the time in office, another 11 weeks, you overtake Ben Chifley. Another five months beyond that, you overtake Andrew Fisher, the World War I Prime Minister. Then you're second behind Hawke. Would you be satisfied with that, or will you go for broke and try and catch up to Hawke?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, what you've just outlined is a reminder that long-term Labor governments haven't by and large been part of Australia's history since Federation. Bob Hawke and Paul Keating, of course, governed for 13 years, but Gough Whitlam for less than three years. The Rudd and Gillard government for just two terms. And I've said that I want to see Labor in government for the long term. I see Labor as the natural party of government, that we represent the interests of a majority of Australians. I think it's very clear that we're the only mainstream political party now that's clear about our objectives, what we stand for, what our values are, taking Australia forward. And so I don't see this as about personal milestones. It's a matter of leading a government that is making a positive difference.

GILBERT: But you don't rule out potentially reaching Bob Hawke. That's just under nine years in office.

PRIME MINISTER: I'm not getting ahead of myself, Kieran. And what we know is that politics these days I think is done at a really fast pace. So, a lot can change between now and the next federal election that is being held in 2028. It's due around about May, and I believe governments should serve a full term. Three years, as you know, I think is too short. So, I certainly intend to contest that election, but I don't take it for granted, because we've seen in the last 12 months a lot of change.

GILBERT: And would you go again beyond that?

PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, I'm not getting ahead of myself. What I know is that one, I want to make sure that I'm enjoying the job. There's a lot of pressures in this job, but I am enjoying it. It is a privilege to be able to make a decision, but there's a lot of pressures in the job as well. And secondly, I want to make sure that I'm in the best position to be the right person to continue to lead the Labor Party. I'm in my eighth year now as Labor leader. If you look at the other side of politics, I think I'm in, I think, my fourth Liberal leader. You've had multiple National Party leaders. And of course, in the UK, there's been five Prime Ministers that I've dealt with in the time that I've been Prime Minister. So, I do think that Australians -

GILBERT: Is that part of your message though, in terms of your pitch to the Australian people going forward? I mean, I know we're still a long way up from the next election, but you look at international events, turmoil, instability. This country, what, the last 15 years after John Howard, basically - you lived it, I reported on it - it was a very uncertain time.

PRIME MINISTER: It was a revolving door.

GILBERT: And now you've got this period of longevity. Do you see that in and of itself as a very strong message to say, 'look, I've kept this show together'?

PRIME MINISTER: What I see as a strong message is that I lead a government that's stable, that's orderly, that deals with challenges such as the fuel crisis coming from the Strait of Hormuz. Now, who saw that coming? This time last year, I think if we had have spoken about that, many of your viewers wouldn't have ever heard of the Strait of Hormuz. But what we know is that we had to act in an orderly but very fast way. We put in place measures like the EFA measures to purchase fuel on the spot market very quickly. We took action to reduce the fuel excise. We took action as well to deal with our neighbours. I travelled to Singapore, Malaysia, and Brunei to secure fuel. Indonesia provided fertiliser. China provided jet fuel. What that was, I think, was government working at our best. Government working with the private sector to deliver in the interests of Australians. And remember before Easter, there was talk, before I gave my national address to the nation saying, 'we're about securing supplies, just take what you need.' There was calls for restrictions on fuel purchasing, that was said that that would be necessary from the Opposition. We didn't do that. We got on top of the issue and we delivered. So, I think that's one of the things that happens when you have a government that is experienced, that is coherent, that isn't fighting with itself as we see from the Liberal Party and One Nation.

GILBERT: In terms of Prime Ministers, as we talk about that list of Labor leaders, who do you see that reflects your style, your philosophical underpinning the most? Have you got one that you think of?

PRIME MINISTER: Probably Bob Hawke. Bob Hawke led a Cabinet-level government. He was someone who understood the movement as a whole. And we saw recently at the ALP National Conference really that sense of purpose going forward from the entire Labor Party, not just the parliamentary wing. And it was extremely successful. It mightn't have been in the best interest of the media reporting, because there wasn't conflict, because we'd set up structures to have 60 people meeting in the months leading up to, with the policy committee developing the platform. That's how government should operate. And my Cabinet operates in a collective way as well. There's good spirit. It doesn't leak. We get things done. We are a reforming government. The job of reform is never done. You need to make sure that you have that sense of duty and that responsibility. It is a great responsibility that we have been given.

GILBERT: I wonder if Mr Keating will call you to say congrats.

PRIME MINISTER: Oh, Paul and I spoke just a couple of days ago. We speak regularly. He's a source of advice. He's someone who is always worth listening to.

GILBERT: Still engaged, isn't he?

PRIME MINISTER: Oh, he's still very engaged, particularly on the economy and on our place in the region. This is the person of course who founded APEC. That is so important. And Paul Keating, it doesn't mean that there aren't differences there. We just agree on AUKUS and some issues, but he's always worth listening to. And he also is good company. That must be said as well.

GILBERT: I'm going to ask you about the summit season coming up in foreign policy in a moment. There's a few other political issues that have been ticking away this week. And I think your media advisors, their heart rates will be a bit lower when we're doing this interview than say some of the podcasters, given the questions where they go, but mine are a bit more straight down the pitch. But in terms of the way that that podcast went, you've rejected the characterisation of how that answer was given. Have you thought about just saying, 'look, if people found it offensive, I'm sorry. I respect the Japanese Prime Minister. I respect the country. If you found it offensive, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention.'

PRIME MINISTER: I do respect the Japanese Prime Minister. And certainly, it isn't only what I've said. It's what Japan has said as well through their Ambassador have made that very clear. And one of the things, Kieran - there have been a lot of words written about this. There hasn't been one word attributed to me that people have pointed towards as being inappropriate. You do a podcast with someone who's a comedian, there's a risk there. But I was asked about a gift and I said it was a good gift. And it was.

GILBERT: Your critics have said that it was sexist, having the characterisation that your hands were up in front of your chest and she referenced Pamela Anderson, and that it was offensive. That's how it's been characterised.

PRIME MINISTER: Well, they're not my words, Kieran.

GILBERT: You're saying that that characterisation is wrong?

PRIME MINISTER: That characterisation is not right. And if you look at any interviews that I've done, I don't do them with my arms folded.

GILBERT: Should you just apologise and move on? I know that's your belief. And I'm not disrespecting that, but if people find it offensive or said, 'oh, that was inappropriate.' Maybe it's from her, her behaviour, and you're getting that as reflected criticism, whatever the case may be. If people found it offensive, why not just do a Peter Beattie and say, 'look, I'm sorry,' move on.

PRIME MINISTER: Kieran, I apologised for elements of the podcast. I gave an unequivocal apology. I did that. I did that very clearly. But there is nothing I have done with the Japanese Prime Minister, importantly. Her visit was a really warm one. We had a very friendly and warm dinner. It was very informal. We got to know each other and build a really strong relationship through that. And that they aren't my words. They're the words used by the Japanese Prime Minister, by the Japanese Ambassador who was there.

GILBERT: You'll see her too in the next couple of months.

PRIME MINISTER: Of course I will.

GILBERT: Do you need to go to Tokyo or will this more be a summit thing where you'll get plenty of times to go and have a chat?

PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, I'll see the Japanese Prime Minister at a range of forums, including I would expect at the UN General Assembly next month.

GILBERT: Okay. And there'd be more substantive discussions, I guess, at that point. I'll get to the summits in a moment. I do want to ask you about this story, because we've been covering it a fair bit, about the ABC handling of that pretty crook - I mean, to put it mildly - segment that they had, so-called satirical segment referencing Gina Rinehart. It took them nearly 20 days to apologise. The Ombudsman said it didn't breach the Code. Does it show that the framework around the ABC isn't fit for purpose in terms of that Ombudsman and the governance?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, the ABC are independent, of course, of government. I haven't seen the segment, but quite clearly it was inappropriate. It's always inappropriate to use the sort of language that I have seen referenced in it. The ABC have apologised, and that's entirely appropriate.

GILBERT: Your colleagues, Richard Marles and Chris Bowen, called for an apology. The Communications Minister didn't. Were you surprised that maybe she didn't do that?

PRIME MINISTER: The Communications Minister has an important role with the ABC. And I think that probably the motivation there was making sure the ABC's independence is something as well that is assured. Certainly, I think it was appropriate that they apologise and they have. That's a good thing.

GILBERT: Standards are important, aren't they? In terms of whatever broadcast is happening.

PRIME MINISTER: Of course, and it shouldn't have happened. And the depiction, as I said, I haven't seen it, but I've seen it referenced, was entirely inappropriate.

GILBERT: You and I, we spoke ahead of the last summit season, and I asked you about your commitment on the social media reforms and whether you were going to take it to the UN, which you did, and got quite a bit of support for it. Now, as we sit here ahead of your next commitments, do you have any plans on that front when it comes to the social media ban? Have you got any plans that you want to drive that further when you're there?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes, we do. It's been advanced in one form, full or part, by more than 20 nations. That's a good thing. This is Australia leading the world. But the UN this year, there'll be a few issues. One, social media. There's a great deal of interest and people want to engage with us. We said it wouldn't be perfect because we were first. And how's it all going? What more can we do? Secondly is artificial intelligence. I gave a major speech at the University of Sydney. This is something where leaders around the world are having discussions. I've had some personal one-on-one discussions on the phone with leaders in the past couple of months as well. And thirdly, we'll be launching our bid for a seat on the United Nations Security Council. Australia is a middle power, and we do punch above our weight in international forums. We're a leader in the Pacific. We're engaged with ASEAN, and we have those historic links with the United States of America as our most important ally, but also with the UK and with Europe. Now, the opportunity that we have to continue to play a leading role in order to advance Australia's national interest, we do live in an interconnected world. These challenges go across global boundaries. And indeed in areas like social media, of course, they don't recognise land borders. And that is why -

GILBERT: So, you see that as almost interconnected, some of that, whether it be AI, the social media push, or having that seat?

PRIME MINISTER: They're all connected. With new technology, and one of the things I spoke about at Sydney Uni was the Papal Encyclical. And if I could be so bold as to summarise what Pope Leo wrote about, the Holy Father wrote about the need to make sure that humans continue to be in control. And this is a big issue. The world is changing so fast, and you can't press the stop button because new technologies and new developments are ubiquitous. If they're developed in one area, they spread very quickly. So, how do you make sure that it works in the interest of humanity? And that's before you get to some of the issues with nation states that might want to use it or use it in inappropriate ways as well.

GILBERT: Can you reflect a little bit more on what you've said? Because you said you've spoken to colleagues, other world leaders about AI and the lead up to the UN talks. Is there anything specific you're thinking about on that? Because we know what you're doing on the social media ban. No doubt you want to get other nations to sign on and do their own thing. What about on AI specifically?

PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm engaged with a range of leaders about that issue. And it's something that leaders are talking about. One of the first discussions I had with Prime Minister Andy Burnham was him mentioning the fact that we have, I think, got ahead of where most countries have been by just talking about that. We've established the office in my department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. We're engaged with the private sector as well. This is a huge opportunity for Australia if we get it right, but we need to get it right. And we need to -

GILBERT: Andy Burnham as well? You'll see him in New York, I guess. Is that the time you'll see him?

PRIME MINISTER: I would expect that I will see him. I've spoken to him. We've had a few conversations now. Very warm. We have a bit in common as well. He's a rugby league guy. And he's committed to support South Sydney on the basis that I support Everton and I was prepared to do. That's the first arrangement between us as Prime Ministers, on an informal basis. Well, these things can be a way of just engaging with each other as well, and those relationships are important.

GILBERT: Indeed, they are. And I've taken a lot of your time, but it is a big day and a milestone to recognise as you pass Paul Keating's time in office. We appreciate you making the time.

PRIME MINISTER: Thanks so much, Kieran.