Secretary of State Marco Rubio with Shubhajit Roy of The Indian Express

QUESTION: In the last 25 years, India and U.S. have been developing robust bilateral relations. The strategic logic is very clear. Both are vibrant democracies, vibrant economies, and open societies. The possibilities for partnership is huge. But there are challenges and headwinds as well. To unpack all of this, we have with us none other than U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

Secretary of State Marco Rubio, thank you so much for doing -

SECRETARY RUBIO: We'll try to unpack all of this. That's a lot to unpack, but it's important.

QUESTION: Yes, but it's - thank you for doing this with The Indian Express.

SECRETARY RUBIO: Of course.

QUESTION: It's been about two years as you took charge as the U.S. Secretary of State. And I wanted to get a sense from you: How do you see the trajectory of India-U.S. relationship, the arc, in the last two years?

SECRETARY RUBIO: Well, I think positive in many ways. Certainly, it's become a feature of our foreign policy. It's one that we're very focused on. In fact, when - I was just saying in another interaction I was having a few moments ago, when I became Secretary of State, I got sworn in by the Vice President the day after they took office, the day after inauguration. I went over to the State Department by tradition, and I spoke to the Diplomatic Corps that was there; I stood on the steps. And then my very first meeting, I went upstairs to the seventh floor to my office - my very first meeting was a meeting with the Quad that included, of course, India.

And since then, I've had multiple interactions with - must have been over a dozen with my counterpart here in every forum. This is my second visit here. And I think you've also seen at high levels of our government - well, you've seen multiple of our agencies come here and visit as well. And of course, we had the bilateral visit by the prime minister to the United States. So we're going to continue to build on that.

And I think - now, look, we have some challenges, because this is not a small country. This is a big and important country. It has a large economy. It has an enormous business class. So, trade has been an irritant that we're working through on the trade relationship, and that needs to be solved. And - but I also think that even as that process continues to work its way out, we have so many areas of cooperation, the Quad being an example - an area of very strong cooperation - that is beginning to actually turn ideas into action. We're starting to see, like, actionable items begin to happen as a result of the Quad. It's a very, very positive relationship. And that would not be possible without there being a strong U.S.-India relationship.

QUESTION: Right. You - I'm glad you mentioned about trade. And the issue of trade and tariffs have posed some challenges to the relationship. Although President Trump has just issued a waiver on the - on India buying Russian oil. But there is a certain concern that it might be imposed at some point. Does it put some kind of stress on economic ties? Do you think that -

SECRETARY RUBIO: Well, I mean, it can. There's no doubt about it, and that's why it has to be managed, and it has to be managed very, very carefully. And that's why the relationship we have is so critical. We certainly don't want to do things - none of these tariffs are done to punish or to harm India. They are part of a broader foreign policy that, unfortunately, involves a war going on between Russia and Ukraine that we'd like to see come to an end.

And I'm sure you saw that in our own media and in our own political system, when the President issued those waivers and did not impose the tariffs that are required under this law passed by our Congress, he got criticism for doing it. But one of the reasons why he didn't impose them is because he understands that it would have a very detrimental impact on a very important relationship with India.

And so it's part of balancing foreign policy. And it's a difficult part of it, because on the one hand you do want to make sure you can pressure the warring parties to the table to negotiate an outcome in that war. I think we would all like to see that. On the other hand, sometimes by imposing pressures from tariffs, you're creating stress on other important relationships. So that all has to be balanced. I think the President is trying very hard to balance that in a very positive way. And - but it'll be a challenge, and it's one we're going to have to manage.

QUESTION: Right. Just to take this conversation forward, the two countries have been negotiating a trade deal for almost a year and a half now. And we've come closer, but it's still not there. Both sides have indicated that they're trying to find the landing ground, landing point. How far are we, and what are the sticking points that are preventing us from concluding this trade -

SECRETARY RUBIO: Well, I don't want to get into the details or the sticking points. I can simply tell you that it's - there - I won't call them technicalities, but there - it's language-related. It's basically down to what certain words mean and what certain phrases mean, because it's important for both sides to have full agreement. Both sides have to 100 percent agree on what a deal means. If they don't, then in the future it'll kind of unravel in certain ways, and we don't want to see that happen.

So, I think we're incredibly close. The way I would say it is we are weeks, not months away from I think finalizing it. I think 99 percent of the work is done; the remaining factor - you have to have 100 percent done. But I feel very positive about the trajectory that it's on.

QUESTION: You said that your first day, that the quad foreign ministers' meeting took place, and the - there was a sort of momentum, and you've been an early champion of this whole framework. But there's a sense that when it comes to Trump Administration's view of China, it has changed since the first term to second term - it's seen as soft. How do you sort of respond to that perception?

SECRETARY RUBIO: I don't think "soft" is the right terminology. I think the right terminology is that China is - and you know this well, because India also has a relationships with China. But China is a large economy, it's a powerful country, it's a country we have to have relations with, and it's a country that our relationship with them needs to be balanced. We are most certainly going to have disagreements with them; we have them now. Even as I speak to you now, there are things they are doing that we don't agree with and that we consider to be harmful to the interests of the United States. And so even now you see where they're - and we - their actions that are being taken, whether export controls or different measures that are going into place, that cause irritants.

So, I think the attitude of this administration has been to try to find a level of strategic stability in our relationship with them, understanding that if things go bad, if the United States and China get into a trade war, or into any other conflict for that matter, it would be incredibly detrimental to the world. But it won't be easy, because you have these two very large, powerful countries - large, powerful economies; large, powerful militaries - and it is important for us to have a relationship that is stable, despite disagreements.

And so we're going to continue to press on those items that we think are against our national interests, that they are doing; but at the same time, try to manage the relationship in a way that doesn't escalate into something far more dangerous or detrimental - not just for us, but for the world. A U.S.-China trade war would be devastating to the global economy. It would impact India, it would impact virtually every country in the world. So we seek to avoid that sort of outcome. And - but as I said, it's part of a - it's a challenge this administration has taken on in a way that I think has been reasonable and balanced.

QUESTION: Right. The people-to-people relationship between India and U.S. is very, very strong. Huge Indian diaspora, a lot of students travel there to study. But in recent months and years, this H-1B debate, and the restrictions on visas, and also this rhetoric, anti-Indian rhetoric, that is somehow translating into antagonism towards India. We saw this plot that was foiled last week targeting a temple. How do you - how do you assuage the concerns of millions of families who have - who have invested in a U.S. education, or who want to invest in - the best and brightest choose U.S. as a preferred destination. So these concerns, how do you assuage those?

SECRETARY RUBIO: Yeah. So the first thing I would say is every country in the world has to have immigration laws. If they're not, they're not a sovereign country. And so all we ask is that our - and I'm not saying this is unique to India. This is not about India. This applies globally. Because I could be doing this interview in any country in Latin America, and I would be asked the exact same question - about maybe a different visa, maybe a different immigration program, or visa program, but they would ask about it nonetheless. And what has happened in the United States unfortunately is for a number of years, but especially under the four years of Joe Biden, we had 20 million people enter the country unlawfully. We just did. We also have seen abuses. Frankly, we've seen abuses in many of these programs. Again, not unique to Indians or India; it is tied more broadly to the world. We've seen a rise in birth tourism - that has nothing to do with India, but with other countries - things of this nature.

So, we are trying to fix 20 years of neglect of an immigration system that was simply not being enforced. And that's not targeting India. Now, obviously because of the developments and because of the ties between our countries, because of how developed your economy is, there are certain categories of visas that have a large number of Indians who are using it to apply. But it's not targeting India. We are simply trying to fix our immigration system so that we can arrive at one in which we are always going to welcome immigrants and visitors to the United States. We want people to visit the United States. We want people to study in the United States. There are certain people that we want - that want to come work for a time in the United States. We want people to invest in the United States. And we're always going to have people immigrate to the United States. But we want it done through a system of laws that are followed and complied with. And that's not - that wasn't being done. And we've identified loopholes and ways that those laws were being abused that needed to be closed.

The biggest threat to legal immigration is illegal immigration. The biggest threat to legal immigration is mass migration. Which, again, is not an Indian phenomenon; that's more unique to other parts of the world. But we were confronting all of that and that's what we're trying to solve. And while I know from your perspective here in India, it may seem targeted at India. It's not. There is virtually no country on Earth that I go to that I don't get a complaint about some visa or some process, because we're fixing it globally. But once it's fixed it'll be far more sustainable. I actually think it'll be better for the people that are using those programs, and - and I think it will be right and good for the United States.

QUESTION: Right. The Trump Administration's ties with Pakistan now, the closer proximity, especially with the Pakistan general - it has - not perceived very well here in India. And so, I want to get a sense from you that India - some in India would see it as a return to the Nixon/Kissinger era when the U.S. administration was siding with the - was backing the Pakistan's military rulers. How do you pacify these worries that a U.S. - closer U.S.-Pakistan relationship impacts the India-U.S. relationship?

SECRETARY RUBIO: Well, I would not use the 1970s as an example because the world looks nothing like it did back then. Back then, we had the Cold War and all sorts of other dynamics that no longer exist. Number two, I would say that our relationship with no country in the world at any way comes at the expense of our relationship with India. I hope my visits here, our commitment to doing the trade deal, all of the engagements that we've done, all the work that do together is evidence of that. In no way is our relationship with any other country - will it ever come at the expense of our relationship with India.

Pakistan is a country we have a relationship with and we need to have a relationship with and, I think in some ways, could be a positive thing if we could help to discourage actions that could potentially lead to conflict, if we could perhaps use our influence in ways that are positive. I think that could be good. But I think what everyone should be assured of in India is that our relationship - not just with Pakistan, but with any country in the world - will never come at the expense of our relationship - we don't view it that way - our relationship with India.

QUESTION: Your visit also includes a visit to Jamnagar, and this - I want to - you to talk about the energy cooperation agenda, especially the Texas refinery; and also your meeting with the Ambanis. How does this come a week after Elon Musk, he accused Ambanis of blocking the entry of Starlink to India?

SECRETARY RUBIO: Yeah, well, Elon Musk is a private citizen, so he obviously has a right to express himself and say whatever he wants. Our country has free speech and - he's an important private citizen, he owns important businesses, but he's a private citizen. So, I can't speak to that.

What I can speak to is why it's important that we have this meeting, and that is one of the things that we are very interested in - and the whole world is interested in - is diversifying how we get energy. I don't think we want to live in a world in which an overwhelming amount of the global energy comes from one part of the world that's prone to conflict. I think this is a company and this is a country that has refining capacity. And we have, for example, Venezuela that's going to be rapidly increasing the production of oil and crude, heavy crude, which can only be refined in certain parts of the world. One of those places is the Gulf Coast of the United States. But another of those places, one of the other - few other places in the world that can actually refine Venezuelan heavy crude is in India, and it's Reliance.

So, I think that's important because it helps utilize and unleash the energy that's being developed in the Western Hemisphere, but also they've invested in the United States. I think it's one of the first new refining expansions in the United States we've seen in recent times; that's a very important investment.

So, I think it's an opportunity to see how they operate but also to identify opportunities to achieve our mutual goal of diversifying our energy resources so that they're not dependent on one part of the world in the ways that leave us vulnerable.

QUESTION: India has initiated a proposal to - on the Black Sea ceasefire. How do you - how do you see India's involvement now?

SECRETARY RUBIO: It can be very positive. Unfortunately, as I said, it's a conflict that - the problem with the Black Sea ceasefire has been that those strikes that are occurring there are - have strategic value for the combatants. And so I think that's what's made it so difficult. But we applaud the very positive work. I reviewed a text that's - about a week and a half ago that the Indian side had put together. I think that's made a - they've played a very positive role in a very difficult conflict to try to solve. But that is just an effort to sort of save the world from the implications that it's having on energy. And we welcome India's involvement. I think they are a very professional diplomatic corps and have done an excellent job of trying to bring the parties together. It's just been difficult.

QUESTION: Thank you. Thank you, Secretary Rubio, for this wonderful conversation.

SECRETARY RUBIO: Thank you.

QUESTION: And hope you have a great stay in India.

SECRETARY RUBIO: Thank you.

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