Interview with the President of the Government of Spain. El Intermedio. La Sexta.

INTERVIEW WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE GOVERNMENT OF SPAIN

El Intermedio, La Sexta

Conducted: Monday, 14 September 2026

El Gran Wyoming: As we have been announcing, joning us today on El Intermedio is the President of the Government of Spain, Pedro Sánchez. Good evening, Mr President.

Response: Good evening, Wyoming

El Gran Wyoming: How are things? Very well, thank you. (Applause from the audience). You see, you've already got 40 votes right here! Right, let's start with the important stuff. You make recommendations on your social media channels. When are you going to recommend my books?

Response: When you give me one - and a signed copy with a dedication, too.

El Gran Wyoming: Consider it done; it's a done deal.

Sandra Sabatés: Mr President, welcome to El Intermedio.

Response: It's a pleasure.

Sandra Sabatés: Thank you very much indeed for joining us here this evening. Well, let's start by analysing the situation in Ceuta. You have boasted on more than one occasion about your experience in crisis management, starting with the pandemic. But what has gone wrong, Mr President, that, a month and a half on, Ceuta is still a powder keg?

Response: Well, I wouldn't necessarily frame it as things being done right or wrong. I believe we are facing a humanitarian crisis that demands two things: first, the strength of the rule of law when dealing with migrants who do not have the right to international protection - ensuring their return, in this case primarily to Morocco, which is the country of origin of a large number of the migrants who arrived in Ceuta on 30 and 31 July. And secondly, obviously, ensuring that those who do have the right to international protection under the law can avail themselves of it. That takes time. It requires, first of all, that we relocate all the migrants we see on the beaches in those images into proper centres. Then we have to screen and identify these migrants and, finally, proceed as quickly as possible to process their international protection claims or return them to their country of origin. So what I am asking for is, of course, patience and empathy towards the people of Ceuta, but I also want to assure them that the State as a whole is working to resolve this crisis sooner rather than later.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, 'sooner rather than later' is precisely what people keep asking about. But, then again, perhaps it is a crisis that simply follows its own course. In any case, your government downplays the warnings from the CNI [National Intelligence Centre] and insists that no one could have foreseen the scale of this incursion. Does that mean the intelligence services failed?

Response: No. There are essentially four phases to this crisis. The first dates back to 8 July, when the Supreme Court issued a ruling stating that individuals who enter by swimming, which is relatively easy in certain areas of the Autonomous City of Ceuta, cannot be subject to summary border returns. That ruling prompted the Government of Spain, in conjunction with the Moroccan government, to begin work on creating a physical border - specifically, the buoys we have been installing to establish a containment barrier. This allows us to comply with the Supreme Court ruling while still proceeding with border returns. Secondly, in the days leading up to 30 and 31 July, there was a spike in migrant arrivals in the Autonomous City of Ceuta, though never on the scale of what we witnessed on 30 and 31 July. We're talking about a shift from numbers in the tens to numbers in the hundreds during the hours immediately preceding 30 July. 30 July began as a relatively quiet day, but as the morning progressed, we began to see an influx of migrants; for ten hours, the Moroccan authorities did not simply adopt a passive stance - indeed, they alerted us to the migrants' arrival - but rather appeared to make a strategic decision to manage the surge intelligently, aiming to minimise harm to the migrants themselves. Ultimately, however, more than 141 deaths occurred off the coast of Ceuta and at the border with Morocco. And then , ten hours later, we saw a much more active and mobilised Morocco working to contain those thousands of migrants, alongside a commitment - conveyed to Spanish authorities - that the migrants could be returned to Morocco. These are the confirmed facts and figures available to date. What we've seen is a Supreme Court ruling being used on social media by migrant networks to justify mobilising towards the Autonomous City of Ceuta on 30 and 31 July. What we've also seen is both Moroccan and Spanish authorities prepared to handle this migration in the days leading up to the event and during the crisis itself. But unfortunately, we were unable to fully contain the influx, so we made what I believe was the most humanitarian choice: to take the people in, with the intention of subsequently returning them to Morocco - with nine out of ten returning voluntarily.

El Gran Wyoming: But it wasn't anticipated... So, could it happen again at any moment? Is it possible for 70,000 or 80,000 people to gather at a border without anyone noticing?

Response: Well, we need to be very aware, first of all, that we face a structural challenge: as long as the current inequality between the two sides of the border exists - we are talking about income levels on the Spanish side being eight times higher than on the Moroccan side - the challenge of migration will always be there. Secondly, we need positive cooperation with Morocco, precisely to contain the arrival of migrants on the Moroccan side. Hence the need for a positive relationship with Morocco - one based on respect and on facts. Therefore, it must be based not on speculation or disregard, but on concrete facts, so we can establish exactly what happened. And the information we have - from both the State law enforcement forces and agencies and our National Intelligence Centre - is that, of course, movements were detected indicating a potential rise in the number of migrants reaching the Autonomous City of Ceuta; however, the scale and proportion were nothing like what we witnessed on 30 and 31 July. Furthermore, there is often speculation regarding WhatsApp messages - talk about the Chief of Staff and the Government Delegate... Well, ultimately, those WhatsApp messages do not constitute proof that alerts had been issued. In my view, it is actually quite the opposite; citizens need to know that in a serious country like Spain, when intelligence information exists, the standard procedure is to draft intelligence reports and share them with superiors - in this case, the political officials at the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Defence, and other Government members - so that action can be taken. What did happen - and I believe the WhatsApp messages demonstrate this - was that the Spanish authorities, as well as the Moroccan authorities, were paying attention and keeping a close watch; however, it was evidently not on the scale or with the level of mobilisation we witnessed on 30 and 31 July.

El Gran Wyoming: But, of course, inequality isn't going to disappear overnight. So, this could happen again a month from now. What could be done to prevent something similar?

Response: I think there are two aspects to this crisis. Or three, if I'm being precise. The first is the border. Indeed, since I became President of the Government of Spain, we have increased investment in the borders of both Ceuta and Melilla. We have invested over 77 million euros, and we are going to invest another 100 million euros in the near future. Secondly, there is the humanitarian aspect. Indeed, both Ceuta and Melilla have temporary reception centres for migrants, temporary accommodation centres for migrants, but not on the scale or in the numbers we will likely need for the future - numbers sufficient to prevent a recurrence of the images we have witnessed, and those seen during the migration crises in the Canary Islands in 2021 and 2022. Therefore, I believe we need to make a structural commitment for the future regarding migrants arriving in Ceuta and Melilla - which, let us remember, are the only land borders not just for Spain, but for Europe, on the African continent, making them complex borders and sensitive locations. Well, we've got to do all that. And, thirdly, I believe that what we need to do is strengthen that cooperation with Morocco, particularly at European level, and also at Spanish level, so that we can, in some way, promote economic development in Morocco, particularly in the north, and thereby alleviate the migratory pressure that Morocco may be experiencing, partly as a result of the disparity in opportunities and per capita income between Morocco and Spain

Sandra Sabatés: The fact is, Mr President, that the majority of the public believe that Morocco is behind this storming of the Ceuta border. The polls indicate as much. A resident of the Autonomous City has sent in a question for you regarding this very issue. Listen to this.

My name is Antonio, I live in Ceuta, and I would like to ask the President of the Government of Spain: What's up with you that you're so scared of the neighbouring government, leaving Ceuta to its own devices? And for what reason? Because the truth will come out someday - it has to; history will tell.

Sandra Sabatés: Mr President, what is your answer to Antonio? Because it is true that many people do not quite understand why the Government appears so lukewarm regarding the regime of Mohammed VI, whereas on other occasions, for example, with Donald Trump or Benjamin Netanyahu, you have been more forceful, tougher.

Response: As I have said before, I believe that relations between countries - and particularly with neighbouring countries - must be based on respect and facts, not on speculation and a lack of consideration. That said, the Government of Spain - and I, personally, regarding foreign policy - have indeed spoken clearly whenever it was necessary to do so. These rumours that are doing the rounds about mobile phones or other matters - well, they might be fine for a Netflix series, but reality has to be based on facts, not rumours. I could give a long, detailed answer here on the need to establish a bilateral relationship with Morocco in the fields of security, the economy, culture and social affairs. But let's get to the heart of the matter - the issue of Ceuta. The question I would ask Antonio in response is this: Those political parties and individuals calling for and demanding that we sever ties with Morocco - which is the country to which the vast majority of those migrants who arrived in Ceuta on 30 and 31 July must return... If we do break off relations, what exactly are they proposing? Are they offering a solution, or do they want to let the problem fester? In other words, from a purely pragmatic point of view, I think it is clear that we need to build a positive relationship with Morocco in order to resolve this problem, and, as Wyoming quite rightly says, to ensure that it does not happen again. And that is why, naturally, as President of the Government of Spain, I defend the general interest - the interest of Ceuta and that of Spain.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, to address that gentleman's question briefly - he asked you whether you were scared, because Feijóo insinuates you are somehow being blackmailed by the Moroccan government. Even someone like Aitor Esteban, who is by no means a firebrand but rather a moderate man, does not rule out that possibility. Can you assure us that the Pegasus spying incident involving you and your government is not influencing your stance on Morocco?

Response: Not at all, not at all. I also believe that, as President of the Government of Spain, I have demonstrated, over these past eight years, my autonomy and my commitment to defending the general interest, and thus the interests of our country's citizens. And I would emphasise that, if we have a problem - which right now is the humanitarian management of this crisis and the repatriation of migrants who do not qualify for international protection in our country, and must therefore return to Morocco - then the intelligent course of action, in the interest of the public good, is to maintain constructive and as positive a relationship as possible with Morocco. But I will say one more thing, Wyoming. I have never said that we would not respond firmly to Morocco if it were proven that Morocco - or the regime itself - was behind the events of 30 and 31 July. However, as things stand, there is no information that provides solid evidence that Morocco was responsible for the surge of arrivals we experienced on the 30th and 31st of

July. I repeat: the information we currently have is that a distorted version of a Supreme Court ruling from 8 July circulated on social media. It was claimed - deliberately, in the form of a hoax - that one could swim to Spain and would not be subject to immediate return at the border. That was proven to be false when they entered on 30 and 31 July; indeed, the evidence shows that nine out of ten people who entered returned to Morocco within a few days, or even a few hours. And not only that, Wyoming, we are currently seeing around 200 people a day voluntarily returning from Ceuta to Morocco, precisely because they realise that all that misinformation is just that - misinformation - and is therefore untrue.

El Gran Wyoming: We have another question from a resident of Ceuta - in this case, Juan.

Mr President, my name is Juan; I'm from Ceuta and I've always lived in Ceuta. I would like to ask you: what timeframe do you envisage for this situation to be resolved?

El Gran Wyoming: Well, what do you say to Juan? How do you see it playing out… Soon? Before Christmas? …

Response: Look, Wyoming. Under the National Security Law, we have established a unified command structure and set a deadline of the end of the year. We hope to resolve this crisis, which has three dimensions, as soon as possible. The first dimension concerns the border, specifically, increasing investment - which is what the Government of Spain is currently focusing on - to improve our border facilities in order to deter any such incidents that may occur in the near future. Secondly, naturally, to relocate all migrants, identify them and, where appropriate, proceed with the necessary procedures for protection or deportation. And, finally, the socio-economic aspect: in other words, ensuring that the people of Ceuta are not adversely affected in terms of their economic well-being. Furthermore, two weeks ago, the Government approved a special plan worth over 300 million euros, of which 80 million euros will be injected into Ceuta's economy before the end of the year. To put that figure in perspective, those 80 million euros represent 4 per cent of Ceuta's annual Gross Domestic Product. That is the effort the State is making in Ceuta across these three areas: the humanitarian aspect, border security, and the economic revitalisation of the Autonomous City of Ceuta. It is therefore a complex crisis, but I also want to tell the people of Ceuta that I am convinced they will emerge from it even stronger than they were at the start, precisely because of the commitment the State has been making for quite some time, and especially recently, to their economic growth, security and social harmony. One of my biggest concerns is that this harmony might be fractured - not by the migrants themselves, but by political parties that use anti-migration rhetoric to sow division regarding diversity, and by extension, undermine concord and coexistence.

El Gran Wyoming: But what people are asking is when - when will things return to the way they were.

Response: Just to give you an idea, Wyoming - before this crisis began, before 30 or 31 July, we had 500 places set up in Ceuta to accommodate migrants. We're set to end this week with more than 6,000, and our aim is to reach - or even come close to - 10,000 active places, precisely in case we need that capacity. Alongside making all these places available, we are identifying all the migrants - adults and minors alike. Minors fall under the jurisdiction of the autonomous communities - in this case, the Autonomous City of Ceuta - which ensures the special protection they are entitled to. At the same time, we are streamlining administrative procedures and case processing to either grant international protection or arrange for their return if they do not meet the legal criteria required to qualify for such protection. In most cases, we are talking about Moroccans - men, women and, above all, many Moroccan children. I find it quite amusing when I hear certain far-right speeches talking about an "invasion." The truth is, many of them are - or were - minors, children; sadly, many drowned during this crisis, while others arrived seeking a better future in a country that is creating opportunities they might not find in their home countries. In any case, Morocco has expressed its willingness to reunite these children with their families as well, and so, well, this takes time, but we are mobilising all the necessary resources and the full weight of the State to resolve the matter as soon as possible. The timeframe we have set ourselves, Wyoming, in any case, for this unified command, is from now until the end of the year, and we hope that the situation will have stabilised by then.

Sandra Sabatés: Do you believe, Mr President, that the Government of Ceuta is cooperating in good faith to resolve this crisis?

Response: Well, I have noticed a change. I believe that throughout the crises we've had to manage over the years, I have always acted with a spirit of unity and institutional loyalty. And when that unity and institutional loyalty are undermined, the interests of Ceuta itself are being undermined. We handled things very similarly with Vivas back in 2021, yet I have indeed noticed a change. In 2021, we worked side by side; that isn't happening now. We reached agreements regarding the transfer or use of sites to relocate migrants, only to encounter difficulties after those agreements were made with the Autonomous City of Ceuta. What has changed? Well, I believe - or rather, I gather from what I hear from their top officials, specifically those in the People's Party (PP) - that the shift lies in a desire by both the PP and Vox to exploit the Ceuta crisis. They aren't looking to help the people of Ceuta, but rather to undermine the Government of Spain.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, on another note, the National Court is investigating this crisis. What do you make of Judge María Tardón's handling of the matter? Because Óscar Puente has already weighed in, casting doubt on the situation given that she used to be a city councillor in Madrid representing the People's Party - and, well, let's just say that from his perspective, this compromises her impartiality. It's a good thing he didn't do it on Twitter, by the way - he tends to get a bit carried away there. What do you think?

Response: I have the utmost respect for the justice system. But in this specific case - well, the fact that information regarding national security wasn't shared with the authorities - in this instance, the Executive branch, which is responsible for national security - is, to say the least, surprising. Fortunately, the judge rectified that; the information was shared with the Government of Spain - which had requested it - via a National Police unit. And, well, this has been a subject of debate and media coverage across the board. We'll have to see how this situation plays out legally. In any case, what I can guarantee is that the Government of Spain is committed to maximum transparency and full cooperation with the justice system. I stress this because we are the ones most interested in understanding exactly what happened; we want to ensure it doesn't happen again. And if situations involving the arrival of irregular migrants do occur, we want to ensure - obviously - that it isn't on the same scale or volume as what we saw on July 30th and 31st.

Sandra Sabatés: Let's carry on talking about the courts, because the Supreme Court, as you know, has lent credence to the idea that the "Grandchildren Law" could alter election results. Do you believe there is collusion between certain Supreme Court magistrates and the political right?

Response: Well, regarding the Supreme Court and the justice system... that's a separate debate. But we must remember here that there are two political parties that have used this case to bring the matter before the Supreme Court. And today, we find ourselves in this situation precisely because of these complaints filed by the People's Party, Vox and other far-right groups. The question we must ask ourselves is this: Can we really suspend a fundamental right of the citizenry - the right to vote - for 400,000 Spaniards? I believe we are talking about the Law on Democratic Memory, which came into force in 2022. It was the law in place when we voted in the 2023 municipal, regional and general elections, as well as in the regional elections held this year and previously. And there were no issues. Therefore, I do not think we should fear the vote. What we should fear are political parties like the PP and Vox, whose aim is to curtail and suppress a fundamental right of the citizenry: the right to vote.

El Gran Wyoming: So, did they assume that those votes were already destined for a specific party?

Response: Well, in fact, the data shows the opposite. Experience, following the implementation and enactment of the Law on Democratic Memory in 2022, shows that the PP actually won the overseas vote in 2023. They took a seat away from us - specifically the Madrid constituency.

El Gran Wyoming: No one is ruling out the possibility that the Supreme Court is working for you.

Response: Well, or even Feijóo and Abascal themselves. But in any case, I must stress that I believe there cannot be first- and second-class citizens simply because we have third-rate candidates who are afraid of losing the 2027 election.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, speaking of legal matters, your brother has been convicted. Your wife is awaiting a trial-before a jury, incidentally. You have stated on occasion that, well, this happened to them because they are your close relatives. On another note, Judge Peinado is retiring on 27 September. Would you like to say a few words of farewell whilst we're here?

Response: No... I think that ultimately, Wyoming, just as with politicians, when people say "all politicians are the same", well, not all judges are the same. There are judges who do their job well, and there are judges who, in fact, do not. And I believe that Peinado has done great damage to the justice system and that he will not be remembered, shall we say, for his handling of cases, nor for having been an impartial judge. In the case of Begoña Gómez or David Sánchez - who, I must emphasise, are indeed my brother and my wife, but they have their own lives; they are professionals who have dedicated themselves to their work and built impeccable careers. Yet today, unfortunately, they are enduring these open legal proceedings - instigated, it must be remembered, by far-right groups, as well as by the People's Party and Vox - precisely in an attempt to undermine, in some way, the resilience of a legitimate government to carry on its work at the helm of the Executive. Therefore, all I can say is that they are honest people; they are people who, in David's case, will quite rightly appeal against this judgement, which we find utterly incomprehensible. And in the case of Begoña Gómez, my wife ,I hope the jury is impartial and delivers justice; and justice for Begoña Gómez means a finding of total innocence.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, an impartial jury that knows absolutely nothing about who this woman named Begoña Gómez is, or what is happening to her. I reckon you'll have to go and look for that in the shops in Ceuta.

Response: And ultimately, Wyoming, regarding this issue, and given that you started the interview by asking where the Executive Branch or the Government might have fallen short, I think it is also appropriate for judges themselves to conduct that kind of self-correction and self-evaluation. And that is the case in a healthy democratic society, as I believe it is perfectly legitimate for people who are affected by legal proceedings - in this instance, simply because they are relatives of the President of the Government of Spain - to take such action.

Sandra Sabatés: Let's move on, Mr President, to the General State Budget. You insist that you will present it before the end of this year; if you fail to get it passed - which is likely given the lack of support - will you call an early election?

Response: The elections will be in 2027. Legislative terms last four years when the Left is in power, too. We will present the budget, and afterwards, I will assess the parliamentary support we have - including for passing other bills - and I will call elections based on the general interest and what is best for Spain. However, my ambition is to see the term through to the end and remain President of the Government of Spain until the very last day.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, that will make a lot of people happy...

Response: But let me tell you something else, Wyoming: I am convinced that in 2027 - the very next day - we will see the PP and VOX calling for early elections, because progressives will win the elections again in 2027. I am convinced of it. In fact, whenever I am asked - not just by journalists, but also by political figures who perhaps share a progressive outlook on society - I tell them: "Look, every day this progressive government remains at the helm of the Executive is a day won for rights, for freedoms and for the positive transformation of Spain". We were talking earlier about the Law on Democratic Memory, I believe...

El Gran Wyoming: No, no. You were the one talking about it.

Response: No. But I think it is very important because, ultimately, what is the project the People's Party and VOX have? Is it to curtail rights? To strip 400,000 citizens of a right as essential as the right to vote? Well, that is where it starts; that opens a dangerous door regarding the strengthening of our democracy.

El Gran Wyoming: Well, speaking of elections, a few days ago you once again voiced your support for Zapatero. You say you would have no problem having him join you during the election campaign. Do you think a person who is under investigation - for influence peddling, among other things - is an electoral asset? Or, at the very least, won't you tell him, "But don't bring the jewellery; don't go out there looking like Paco Clavel"?

Response: Well, I think everyone is entitled to the presumption of innocence. I also believe that, in the case of José Luis, President Zapatero, it is not only his legacy but also his commitment to the country during his presidency and now too in very complex debates, where he has shown his characteristic courage - such as, for example, the reconciliation process in Catalonia. To me, these seem like compelling reasons to trust in his innocence and to trust that he will be able to take part and cooperate with us in any future election campaigns we may have.

Sandra Sabatés: Let's talk now about one of the major issues worrying Spaniards: housing. How is it possible, president, that after eight years in power this problem is still getting worse?

Response: Well, I think the Housing Act marks a paradigm shift. I believe this is the first law in over 40 years of democracy whereby we are empowering the State - and when I say the State, I am referring not only to the Government of Spain, but also to the regional governments and local councils - to implement intervention mechanisms. Whether it be transparency, with regard to house price benchmarks; or tourist accommodation; or indeed stressed housing areas, and the classification of such areas. In short, we have put in place a series of mechanisms to intervene in the market. What is the problem we are facing? The problem we are facing is an ideological boycott by regional governments that are openly opposed to the implementation of the law. This means continuing with the 'laissez-faire' or 'let it be' approach that we have adopted for over 40 years of democracy when discussing housing. Secondly, speaking specifically of the Government of Spain, rather than Parliament, we have increased the housing budget eightfold and approved a State Housing Plan worth over 7 billion euros. In fact, less than a month ago, we allocated 1 billion euros to the regional governments so they could begin implementing policies linked to the State Housing Plan. And finally, we are transforming SEPES - a long-standing entity within the General State Administration - into a new public company called Casas 47, a public company that will be responsible for developing and building state-owned housing, to make it available to citizens in need of it. In fact, just a few days ago we handed over the first keys to flats built by this public company, Casa 47, which are located in Valencia, and we will soon be doing the same in another region, Murcia, also on the Spanish Mediterranean coast. So, the Government of Spain is taking many actions, though I make no secret of the fact that this is a challenge requiring time. And, secondly, we also need the cooperation of other public authorities which, for purely ideological and dogmatic reasons, refuse to utilise the mechanisms established by the Housing Act. Indeed, we now have empirical evidence showing that in cities - such as Barcelona or others in the Basque Country where the Housing Act is being implemented - we can see that rent prices are being kept more in check than, for example, in cities like Madrid, where the Housing Act is being openly boycotted. We are therefore beginning to see that, wherever these mechanisms under the Housing Act are used, they are starting to yield positive results for citizens.

El Gran Wyoming: And, well, speaking of Madrid, we had plenty of topics to cover, but we've run out of time. That initial rollout was very frustrating, by the way. It was heavily criticised because there wasn't a single property available in Madrid or Barcelona - areas designated as "stressed housing markets" - but let's hope that this initiative goes some way towards resolving the issue in the future. On another note, a question crosses my mind: If 1 billion is being allocated to implement a housing law in regions that aren't willing to apply it, what are they going to do with that money?

Response: Well, they are required to use those 1 billion euros. Incidentally, one of the things we've done in this State Housing Plan, Wyoming, is to mandate that any social housing built cannot be sold off to vulture funds. Citizens need to be aware that if this law and this requirement had been applied from the start - 40 years ago - Spain's public housing stock would be at record highs today, well above the European average. The fact is that, unfortunately, for many, many years the sale of these social housing properties to vulture funds has been permitted.

El Gran Wyoming: I completely agree on that point, but there were also Socialist Party governments during those 40 years.

Response: But it is this government - together with Parliament - that has passed this Housing Act, and I would emphasise that it is a law which provides the regional governments and local councils with powerful tools to enable them to do their job. Because it is a responsibility shared with the regional governments and local councils.

El Gran Wyoming: We have to wrap things up now. Well, we watched the Formula 1 Grand Prix yesterday. But we didn't see you there. Is it because, as Isabel Díaz Ayuso says, you hate Madrid? Or would you like to deny that? To say that you like Madrid just as much as she likes fruit?

Response: I think Mrs Ayuso is a bit obsessed with penthouses. But, in any case, major events in Madrid are always welcome. And, well, I wasn't there in person, but I did watch the Grand Prix on television.

Gran Wyoming: Well then, thank you very much for joining us on Intermedio, Mr President. Once again, thank you for your generosity in visiting us. See you next time. And best of luck and stay strong, because this match must be really challenging. Thank you very much.

(Transcript edited by the State Secretariat for Communication)

Original interview in Spanish

Non official translation